Content material Advertising Technique: An Interview with Robert Rose, Founder, The Content material Advisory | Digital Noch

Content material Advertising Technique: An Interview with Robert Rose, Founder, The Content material Advisory | Digital Noch

RR:: Oh, properly, sure. I do not know the way fascinating they’re to the broader world. In reality, it was humorous. I simply learn a remedy for a documentary movie that someone desires to do, and so they had been type of asking for my ideas on it, and I used to be studying the remedy of it, and, you understand, it was speaking about all of the issues which are actually fascinating for these of us which are inside baseball, proper? By way of what’s fascinating from a advertising perspective, however, for most of the people, like somebody like my spouse, for instance, who’s not within the enterprise in any respect, I am undecided how fascinating they’d be, however nonetheless, yeah, there are some fascinating tales for certain.

SS:: Nicely, if they will make a collection about Mad Males, absolutely they will make a collection about fashionable advertising.

RR:: Truthful sufficient. That is a terrific level. Yeah, that is a terrific level. And, or “Silicon Valley”, proper? Which in fact all the time jogs my memory of the fashionable type of advertising and digital ambiance.

SS:: Completely. Or “Succession”. I might go on, proper…

RR:: Yeah, there really is a lot, yeah. There’s a lot of methods.

SS:: To make one thing out of that. However now you fell into advertising, if I could use – it is not a pejorative time period – most of us are unintentional entrepreneurs – how did you find yourself within the advertising world having got down to be a playwright/screenwriter?

RR:: Nicely, after I was writing, it was a day job for me, so I curiously was making an attempt to pay lease, and so what I knew tips on how to do was do workplace work. And so I ended up becoming a member of as a temp, in Showtime, the cable TV community, their B2B facet of their advertising, proper. Not the B to C, extra model oriented facet, however the B2B type of their relationships with cable suppliers and that entire facet of the enterprise. As a result of in these days, that is the heady days of cable within the early nineties, that was a giant deal to get carriage on the Comcasts and all of these of the world. And so I joined within the advertising division there, supporting the sector advertising group as they might exit and attempt to develop these relationships and realized loads about advertising. And to today, I’ll let you know, from a 40 hour every week W2 place type of worker of an organization, it is the most effective job I ever had. I imply these folks had been tremendous candy, pretty to work with. Taught me a lot about stuff that it really gave me fairly a ardour for advertising which I did not know loads about, on the time. And so I began simply actually giving myself a self-MBA, proper? I learn all the pieces. I simply type of mainly dove into enterprise books, dove into advertising historical past, dove into, you understand, simply went headfirst into it. As a result of I used to be having such a very good time into that career. And I’ve all the time been a student-minded individual. Proper. Every time I type of get concerned about one thing, I type of go all in for some time and I went all in after which I finally, it began to pay the payments extra and I began actually getting concerned about it and I type of took it from there. (9.56)

SS:: Yeah, properly in fact, these had been early days of the Web too, proper? This era was across the…

RR:: Nicely, that is what I found.

SS:: …flip of the century?

RR:: Yeah, that is precisely what I found was there was this, I imply, it wasn’t fairly then, as a result of we’re speaking 93, 94, 95. After which I finally moved, my spouse and I moved, to Washington, D.C., the place I joined one other cable community as their advertising analysis man and began in with this new – my first venture there was type of determining this digital, there was this new factor referred to as AOL and there was this factor referred to as CompuServe and the Web and what wouldn’t it be? And so my first venture there within the advertising analysis division of this cable community was to determine for TV, what the way forward for this factor was going to appear to be. And so I went neck deep into that as type of a venture of my job and went, “That is all the pieces I need to do, I imply, that is writing, that is multimedia, that is expertise, that is music”. I had discovered my type of house. And so digital grew to become such an enormous focus for me within the early days of the Web and finally left that job on the cable TV to go be a part of this model new bizarre factor referred to as a web site design firm, as their worker quantity three. And that is the place I actually type of leapt off and type of received into content material and digital and net constructing and all of the sorts of issues.

SS:: It is fascinating as a result of I do keep in mind that period, clearly, and I simply keep in mind it as a time when there have been lots of digital crusaders pondering they had been going to alter the world – I assume they’ve.

RR:: Not not like at this time, proper?.

SS:: Proper, precisely. If there’s one factor in advertising, change is fixed. Twenty years in the past, I feel it was 2003, you referenced within the guide, you headed up the advertising group for a startup expertise firm within the type of cloud house, and also you helped rework your advertising group on the time into what you name within the guide a publishing unit. Was that while you first began to comprehend that, hey, you understand, “content material was king” right here?

RR:: It was – I want I had the PR model of that reply – is totally: I noticed the longer term and it was all about constructing a content material group. No, I did not do any of that. What occurred was, I had been doing advertising and I had joined up with some associates. These had been all associates of mine from a earlier job that I had in a giant consulting agency. They began this startup in 2000. I joined them in 2000 – it was 2002, really, that I joined – and it was a startup. And the startup software program was enterprise software program, net content material administration, because it seems, and we received our first spherical of funding, in order that they actually plopped thousands and thousands of {dollars} on my desk and stated, a advertising group, go construct one. And I had no concept what the hell I used to be doing. And so I mainly did what I knew tips on how to do, which was my speculation was, look, we’re an enterprise firm, we’re promoting huge ticket gadgets, six determine value tags. Our competitors on the time was IBM. It was Hewlett Packard, now often called HP, in fact Microsoft was within the recreation, Oracle was within the recreation. I imply these had been large manufacturers that we had been by no means going to beat on any of the issues that I had educated on, proper? Any of the issues that I had educated on like model and search engine marketing and all of the issues that had been scorching, we had been simply by no means going to beat them on any of that. And so the one speculation I might give you was, if and after we received invited to the desk, I needed to be a mile and a half deeper than any of them had been as a subject knowledgeable, proper? So once they got here to speak with us, we might have information and thought that they weren’t seeing from the competitors. And it labored as a result of mainly what I did was I took what I knew and I employed journalists, ex-journalists, writers, content material creators and simply constructed this thought management machine, not even simply round content material administration, however round on the time software program as a service and cloud computing as a result of that was all model new then. And as I wish to say, we had been cloud computing earlier than cloud computing was cool. I imply keep in mind that is 2003, 2004 and Salesforce is that this bizarre type of outlier of an organization on the market. And it labored…

SS:: BlackBerry was nonetheless a factor.

RR:: That is proper. Nicely, BlackBerry was simply getting going, proper. I imply I used to be nonetheless working off my Nokia telephone for a very long time. Yeah. And it labored. And we began to develop, we began to get extra inbound leads. We began to essentially construct a popularity as not solely one of many smartest of the businesses within the house, however one of many smarter firms in cloud computing. And so we began getting requested to talk extra, we began getting requested to contribute to articles and all of that generated increasingly more enterprise. And it was a foundational factor that I simply type of felt extra snug in, and that was the explanation behind it. (15.15)

SS:: And also you noticed outcomes from it as a result of the corporate grew.

RR:: That is precisely proper. The corporate grew out of that. After which it began to turn out to be a centered effort. After we began to see that it was working, it grew to become like, okay, now it is a technique, proper? Now it is constructing and scaling that, proper? So the early days we had been doing a white paper a month, we had been doing blogs, we had been doing occasions, we had been doing a webinar program, we had been talking out at occasions and that was actually our advertising technique. Sure, we had been doing search engine advertising and Google search and, you understand, e-mail advertising and the type of extra direct primarily based advertising strategy, however we leaned closely into, and we did not comprehend it was referred to as content material advertising then, it wasn’t till I learn Joe’s guide, “Get Content material, Get Prospects” that I even knew that it had a reputation of what we had been doing. And that is after I went to hunt out Joe and far to his disdain, I really registered the area “” as a result of I assumed, that is it, that is what we’re doing, and that is what we need to be doing.

SS:: I used to be going to ask you about that, since you’ve had an extended standing partnership with Joe, clearly, and a really productive and fruitful one. Was it since you simply approached him out of the blue and stated, “Hey, you understand, I’ve achieved one thing right here that marries up with what your philosophy/ethos is”?

RR:: Yeah, we began, so mainly by the point it received to, you understand, we had been 4 or 5 years into this, by the point it received to 2006 and 2007 within the startup, we had began to make use of our personal strategy because it was somewhat bit meta within the sense that we had been utilizing our personal strategy to type of drive our perspective on our thought management into the world. As a result of keep in mind, we’re promoting net content material administration to advertising groups, proper? So it was in our greatest curiosity to promote the concept of manufacturing extra content material in your web site, producing blogs, producing thought management packages, that was a very good factor to do, not simply have a static web site, however to have a complete content material program. Thus you want an internet content material administration system to try this. So content material advertising grew to become a little bit of a hook for us to promote net content material administration and our explicit model of it, which was in fact cloud primarily based, collaborative primarily based, you understand, versatile, quick, all of the cloud computing advantages. And so I used to be talking at a convention, and I had learn Joe’s guide and I noticed that he was really talking at this convention. So I did what a very good marketer would do. I used a few of my finances to buy a sponsorship, which received me a talking slot, which meant I had an excuse to go. And I stalked him, mainly. I tracked him down and invited him to dinner. And he and I had a dinner, which we nonetheless discuss to today, the place we grew to become instantaneous associates. We had been immediately, immediately bonded with each other. It was a type of issues that you simply simply go, yeah, that is it, proper? That is the place I must be. And felt very snug. And in order that’s after we began speaking.

SS:: So take me by way of that, as a result of then you definately determined to type the Content material Advertising Institute, how did that every one come about? You needed to depart your job to try this, proper? Yeah.

RR:: He had determined to do that Hunt of 42, or Junta 42 as he referred to as it, as an organization which was a matchmaking service for publishing as a result of he in fact got here out of the publishing world and he was doing a matchmaking service between manufacturers and customized publishers, proper? So BlackBerry desires to do {a magazine}. He would associate up BlackBerry with a print firm that would do his journal for him. An airline desires to do {a magazine}. He could be the matchmaking service and he would take a small fee on that matchmaking service. And it labored about in addition to you assume it’d. It simply type of did not in any respect work, as a result of it would not scale very properly. So he was speaking to me at that convention, and he stated I need to do one thing totally different. I need to type of go all in on this content material advertising factor. He stated I am fascinated about beginning this new model, schooling, media, evangelizing, occasions. And he needed to essentially middle it round an occasion. He stated what do you assume? And I cherished the concept. And he stated, “Would you come on as a model advisor”? Proper? Would you come on and simply assist me type of assume this by way of? And so I did that for like a month or two and it type of aligned with my wanting to depart. Like, we had been on our, preparing for the third spherical of funding, I used to be having tensions at work, and I wasn’t having any enjoyable anymore on the startup and so I used to be like “It is time for me to go, proper? It is time for me to do one thing totally different.” And this was type of just like the universe calling to me like, “That is what you have to be doing”. So I used to be going to hold up my very own shingle anyway and begin educating different folks how to do that. And it simply aligned with what he was doing, and he was like, hey, in the event you’re – I am shortening now what’s type of an 18 month course of – however over these 18 months I type of went all in with Joe and stated, “I will be your Chief Technique Officer”. So technically the corporate was based properly earlier than I grew to become Chief Technique Officer and partnered up with him. However yeah, I joined alongside when there was like three or 4 folks on board. So I used to be an early a part of it, however not the instigator of it. He was all the time the visionary behind it. (20.37)

SS:: However you probably did carry to the desk, clearly, your individual expertise and advertising savviness…

RR:: That was all the time the partnership…

SS:: …if I can put it that means.

RR:: Yeah, it was all the time his imaginative and prescient from the media facet, and it was all the time my imaginative and prescient from the advertising practitioner facet. Like, what had been advertising groups actually coping with? And that was the entire concept of us launching consulting. After we launched our consulting observe, behind it was we by no means supposed the consulting observe to scale, and purposely constructed it to not scale as a result of we had been constructing a media firm and never a consulting agency. And we all the time knew that consulting was not going to be probably the most invaluable a part of the enterprise, however it might preserve us shut. It could preserve us near the actual work and what was actually happening and preserve us near the enterprise, and it might preserve me fats and joyful. In order that was the explanation behind it, is I might carry the actual points together with the actual practitioners to bear and the tales and the case research and all the pieces that we might discuss, to maintain us type of very near the precise work and never be some ivory tower like an analyst agency or one thing like that. However that was the entire level of it, yeah, so my position there was all the time a type of chief practitioner.

SS:: So the 2 of you actually pulled the idea of content material advertising to the mainstream. I imply, there was this factor referred to as inbound advertising that HubSpot was selling. However actually, the idea of content material advertising is so intently related to the 2 of you. Was there an inflection level? I do know it was a little bit of drip irrigation over time because the phrase seeped out, as you guys started to evangelize, as your conferences grew in measurement, however was there an inflection level within the business once they sort of took discover, that there is a factor happening right here referred to as content material advertising? Some folks level to BMW’s video “The Rent” as possibly a type of inflection factors. In your thoughts, had been there some turning factors right here that actually put momentum behind the idea of content material advertising?

RR:: I imply I am undecided it is a second in time as a lot as it’s, let’s name it a interval in time, proper? So let us take a look at the time of 2010 to 2013, and what we discovered popping out of the disaster. As a result of let’s not overlook that we based Content material Advertising Institute in the course of the center of the time after we had been all placing cash in our mattress and freaking out that the world was really going to crack open and die, proper? I imply, we had been all able to having a poisonous freak out concerning the world and the financial system. And so popping out of that, from 2010 to 2013, there was an actual leaning into this nascent factor referred to as social media, this new factor referred to as inbound advertising, and this new concept of – comparatively new concept – that had gotten some traction within the mid 2000s however had type of been placed on maintain whereas everyone put cash underneath their mattress referred to as search engine marketing. So it was all about being discovered and being trusted and leaning into the model and leaning into buyer acquisition as a technique in advertising. So all these issues type of got here collectively in 2010 to 2013 and is for my part the actual motive that inbound – and at a meta degree, inbound is among the most profitable content material advertising efforts which have ever existed, proper?
So placing a content material model round one thing that’s totally different than your product was actually one thing that HubSpot did remarkably properly. They grew to become the voice and the face of inbound advertising as a observe, which in fact is simply advertising automation, proper? Inbound advertising is simply advertising automation. We have been doing it for ten years at that time. However they did one thing that Marketo and Adobe and all the rivals that they had been did not do, which was to place a thought management program behind it, put a content material model behind it. And that pivot each on the meta degree in addition to type of, as a part of all that confluence of all the pieces else, actually drove what I see as the driving force of the concept of content material advertising. And the fascinating factor occurred, and we nonetheless snicker about it at this time, is what ended up occurring was HubSpot owned the small enterprise market. They owned that market, proper, for inbound and actually centered in on all the pieces from solo practitioners to small companies as a result of that is the place they had been going to make their bread and butter. They type of uncared for the complete enterprise market. And we making an attempt to distinguish towards that, went solely after the massive international enterprise firms. So we had been driving that type of concept for giant international complicated firms and driving content material advertising. And we noticed the hockey stick progress of that time period as HubSpot was driving inbound. Subsequently, 2014, 2015, HubSpot began to go extra upstream as they wanted to after they had been making an attempt to turn out to be extra profitable. They usually tried to type of, you understand, and I do not blame them for this, they tried to type of pull in among the ideas of content material advertising and name it inbound. And, you understand, we had a “frenemies” struggle for about six months the place we went, hey, no, it is totally different, it is related, but it surely’s very totally different than what you are making an attempt to do. However that might be the timeframe I’d level to. (26.19)

SS:: And you understand, finally Salesforce jumped into this as properly and actually addressed the entire enterprise facet of issues with their huge finances devoted to content material. We’ll come again to them since you do name them out within the guide. However I do need to say, and it is fascinating to listen to you discuss that historical past as a result of I have not actually learn that abstract wherever, so it is fairly fascinating to listen to you say that. However that was a decade in the past that every one started, actually, since content material advertising entered the mainstream. And but within the guide you state, fairly explicitly, that almost all firms have nonetheless not figured it out. It stays a brand new idea, your phrases, to them. Is that as a result of most firms nonetheless consider it as non-working media, that they are nonetheless caught on this focusing on marketing campaign mindset? Is that what’s holding firms again, or advertising departments, holding them again?

RR:: Sure, in a headline, sure. I imply, there’s some extra nuance to that for certain, however yeah, in a headline, that is it. The place many firms wrestle with that is they take the marketing campaign venture oriented mindset of the way in which advertising has been achieved for the final 60 or 70 years and utilized it to content material advertising. You referenced earlier the BMW advert, proper? No matter it was, the James Bondy factor that they did, which was the model movies factor, that was a marketing campaign, proper? I’d say that is nice model advertising and model storytelling or one thing like that. That is a terrific marketing campaign. It’s not a content material advertising initiative as a result of there was no owned media perspective there. There was no actual concept of getting, constructing an viewers round that concept and doing one thing with that viewers. And in order that was type of, that was once, like the most important factor that we might type of dispel myths of, or attempt to appropriate by way of what we had been speaking about with firms, was the concept of marketing campaign, venture, flight primarily based advertising versus an owned media ongoing, constructing a media operation. And that on the coronary heart of it, and that is what hopefully the guide actually will get to, is that it is that operation that’s totally different. That is the operational components which are totally different, which is while you’re constructing one thing that’s presupposed to final for months and years and never be a marketing campaign. It is only a totally different operational strategy, proper? It’s important to take into consideration selling it, it’s important to take into consideration caring for it, it’s important to take into consideration updating it, it’s important to take into consideration how persistently you may put up. It’s important to consider it like a media firm would. And treating content material with the identical care and affection and technique {that a} media firm does is only a totally different working mannequin than content material as a marketing campaign. And it is that working mannequin that journeys firms up. They do not swap up the way in which that they take a look at content material. For many of them, content material is simply an on demand merchandising machine of churning out increasingly more stuff that is presupposed to reside, you understand, for the second, not endlessly. And altering that operation to one thing that’s it like a publication or one thing like that’s only a totally different means of doing issues. (29.45)

SS:: Mark Schaefer makes use of the time period – I like it – “coin operated advertising”. The expectation you place cash in and also you get one thing out.

RR:: That’s proper.

SS:: … and it is somewhat more durable to show with content material advertising. I need to do a deep dive on that idea that is on the coronary heart of your guide, which is the operational mannequin round turning advertising right into a media enterprise. However let’s speak for a second concerning the content material leaders on the market proper now, the undisputed content material leaders, and also you identify them within the guide: Crimson Bull, Cleveland Clinic, HubSpot. We talked about Arrow Electronics – I did not actually know a complete lot about them till you discuss them within the guide. They’re all in very totally different companies. What have they got in frequent that accounts for his or her explicit success?

RR:: I imply, the best factor is, to not type of belabour the earlier level, however is that they modified the way in which that they checked out content material, proper? They modified the way in which that they managed it. I imply, Crimson Bull, the way in which that they received began, you understand, I imply, it wasn’t me that stated this, I am unable to keep in mind the journal, again in 2014 I feel it was, that stated that Crimson Bull was mainly a media firm that occurred to additionally promote a gentle drink, proper? However the entire delivery of Crimson Bull Media Home, which is what produces the journal and the documentary and the fellows getting thrown out of spaceships and all of the occasions that they do and all these issues, the type of media firm that they constructed, the thrust of that was purely accidentally, proper? They mainly began by producing … they actually dragged a printing concept, printing press, all the way down to the native racetrack, the place they might print the race outcomes as they occurred in actual time after which make these a handout, proper, for the individuals who had been leaving the racetrack. They usually began to comprehend that it was working. I imply, it was, once more, an unintentional factor. And so working like a media firm and actually themselves as a writer first, of worth, of fascinating experiences, was a technique to market their product that did not should essentially comport to promoting or, you understand, these sorts of issues. And naturally, they actually leaned into that, proper? And it is these firms which have type of taken that mannequin.
HubSpot did the identical factor, proper? Once they did inbound advertising, they constructed total groups that had been simply centered on the weblog and the occasion and the guide and the neighborhood and constructing out that entire system, the place they operated like a media firm. So these are the, in the event you look, and it is humorous, within the guide, I speak concerning the unintentional versus the purposeful, proper? So there are manufacturers on the market that we maintain as much as excessive requirements of content material advertising. Manufacturers like Amazon and JP Morgan & Chase and others, that in the event you went and requested them and also you stated, are you doing content material advertising? They’d go, I do not even know what that’s, proper. They’ve not learn the books, they have not been to any occasions. They do not even know. They simply knew that by some means working like a media firm and making a relationship with viewers was a very good enterprise technique. After which in fact, you’ve got the purposeful ones who’re really, they learn the books, they do the issues, they begin a technique, and so they do issues, and each are succeeding. So the entire level of the guide was actually, what do each these sorts of firms have in frequent? Like what are they doing in frequent? And the one factor that they’ve in frequent is that all of them have groups that function like a media firm.

SS:: So let’s soar into that since you do make a really sturdy case for it, that content material advertising is greatest served as a media operation in service to an viewers. And also you speak concerning the potential to monetize that viewers, and that does sound awfully like a publishing mannequin. How do you monetize that viewers? And your definition of an viewers – is it a prospect pool? Is it a market? Is it a neighborhood? Is it all the above?

RR:: It is actually all the above as a result of it mainly expands our notion as entrepreneurs of what a buyer is, proper? Drucker, Peter Drucker, what was it, 60 years in the past now? He outlined a enterprise as saying our enterprise is to create prospects, proper? That’s the goal of a enterprise, is to create prospects. And I nonetheless agree with that in 2024. However what we have now typically achieved, and never achieved, is to place the phrase buyer into too tight of a bucket, proper? In different phrases, we outline buyer as somebody who has purchased our services or products. And buyer is de facto somebody, as Drucker would say, who provides wealth to our enterprise. And so they’re all the audiences, they’re all of the folks, teams of individuals, who can add wealth to our enterprise. And so that’s our viewers, proper? And so how will we serve that viewers? And finally, how can they assist us serve our goal? So as to add wealth to our enterprise. That is how I take a look at an viewers. Now, usually, I will phase that down one degree and say they’re addressable, proper? And name that my callback to my cable TV days. However after I say they’re addressable, I imply that you’ve the connection with them. It’s not by way of an middleman, like a Fb or a podcast feed or another middleman that controls when and the place your content material is seen by that viewers. They’re addressable within the sense that you simply select to have the connection with them and might tackle them while you need to. They select whether or not or to not proceed that relationship or not. That is an addressable viewers for me. (35.33)

SS:: And is the dividing line – I do know it is considerably blurry right here as a result of there is a continuum, from somebody that is completely unfamiliar with their product to somebody who’s a fan, clearly – however is the dividing line that the viewers has frequent or shared pursuits? That’s, that is the viewers that is probably not a buyer, however the buyer really has shared wants. Subsequently, they should purchase your product or providers. Is that kind of sort of appropriate?

RR:: Roughly, yeah, kind of. Proper. However in the event you type of widen that umbrella out, and I really like the way in which you framed that, which is in the event you type of take that sentence that you simply stated and type of then apply that, that would embrace the analyst neighborhood to your explicit business. That might embrace influencers in your business. That might embrace the community of the individuals who really purchase your product. That will really assist, you understand, in different phrases, in the event you’re a toy firm, it is not simply reaching the youngsters, it is reaching the dad and mom too, proper. So it is not simply the consumers of your services or products, however are all of the individuals who serve the wants and curiosity of your explicit space and may help you add wealth to the enterprise. And so, yeah, the way in which you framed it’s unbelievable. Clearly, in the event that they haven’t any relation to what I do in any respect, I do not actually care about them that a lot. You recognize, the tendency there, in fact, is to maybe possibly open the umbrella somewhat too broad. However that, I feel it’s, then you definately begin to say, okay, properly, if our viewers is X now, how will we begin to area of interest it down into what’s our largest precedence? Like, what are our enterprise priorities right here? Is it really placing extra leads in our funnel, making extra folks conscious of what we do, making the analyst neighborhood conscious of what we do, making the press accessible, and people are all audiences. However the place’s our largest enterprise precedence by way of the viewers that we have to attain, like proper now?

SS:: So, sticking with this subject, you additionally say within the guide that … that you actually need a cultural shift in a corporation to make this occur. In reality, I feel at one level you advocate that actually it is best to begin from scratch, simply rethink all the pieces. And by that, I imply, I take it you imply, studying to turn out to be a media operation, a writer. That is a giant transformational leap, and definitely would clarify why lots of firms type of have held again in a complete full-on dedication to this idea, proper. It is asking an organization loads to surrender, you understand, 50, 60 years of baked-in advertising observe for one thing that appears summary.

RR:: Yeah, I imply, it may be, it would not should be. Many of the nice content material advertising packages that we have ever seen have began out as very modest efforts, proper? Normally pushed by one or a handful of individuals in various sizes of organizations. Now, there are some that dive headfirst into it and make a full scale transformation of the whole lot of their advertising division. However that is actually uncommon. It is normally that it is some group that will get collectively and operates. Now, the problem is normally – and this goes again to our query of the place do most firms journey up? – is that what most firms will do, those which are struggling will rent that group, proper? They’re going to rent a bunch of journalists, or they will rent a bunch of content material specialists or manufacturing specialists, and so they’ll make a group out of it. And to illustrate they even name it a content material advertising group, whether or not it is one or two or ten folks or no matter it’s. However then these folks turn out to be that coin- operated, that on-demand merchandising machine of content material for all the pieces, proper? And so instantly they’re producing as a result of they’re good at content material, proper? And as I’ve stated, the content material group’s job is to not be good at content material. The content material group’s job is to make the enterprise good at content material. And in order that signifies that it is serving to with requirements, with operations, with processes, and that operation is the vital half.
So, it as a “We handle the weblog” – nice! What’s the purpose? What are the targets? How does it function? How does it work? If it is merely, and I used to be talking with a college group, talking of one thing that is not out of the standard enterprise realm, the place the 2 those who had been accountable for, type of, content material advertising for the college, their job was to handle this weblog, proper? However that wasn’t their job. Their job wasn’t the operations of a media operation referred to as a weblog. It was mainly to be the filter for all of the professors and workers of the college who needed to submit content material for the weblog, proper? So that they had been only a dam or a filter. So it wasn’t a technique, it was only a catch-all, proper? It was simply managing sufficient water to fill a bucket at any cut-off date. So it did not work, proper? So altering the operation or the method, not essentially the quantity of sources related to it, was the vital a part of that. (40.41)

SS:: And that is one of many items of your guide, I feel, is you go fairly deep on course of and we will get into that shortly. However one of many rigidity factors, if I could put it that means, is that this dichotomy between what model entrepreneurs actually need to say – they’re type of the purchasers if you’ll of the content material advertising group – and so they need to promote how nice their merchandise are, clearly – and that dichotomy between what they need to do and what prospects really need, which is de facto, “How are you going to make my life higher?”, proper? So there’s that huge distance. How do firms resolve that rigidity? And it is a part of the transformational problem, clearly, going to a media operation. Who serves as that sincere dealer? Do firms want a Chief Content material Officer? You argue within the guide for, and fairly convincingly, I’d add, for an Editorial Council. In certainly one of your columns, you even, I feel, promote this idea of an editorial product supervisor.

RR:: That is proper.

SS:: As a result of that dealer goes to should be a unicorn with some advertising – somebody like your self, somebody with advertising savviness – mixed with some inventive juices. They’ve actually received to characterize the most effective of each worlds in lots of respects for this to work.

RR:: Yeah, finally. So it comes down to 2 issues, each that are exceedingly uncommon, to be sincere in at this time’s fashionable office, which is, one, having targets and targets that align with no matter it’s we’re making an attempt to do, proper? So in different phrases, it is not all the time a couple of conversion of a sale or the conversion of an individual right into a lead, et cetera, et cetera, so, but it surely typically is, proper? And people are positive, proper. I am not suggesting that we should not do nice advertisements or nice advertising or nice direct calls to motion to say, turn out to be a lead “purchase now, discounted”, all of the issues that we all know in direct advertising. So let’s put that to the facet for a second, as a result of we sort of perceive that.
So what we’re speaking about right here is content material advertising, finally, and the content material advertising, the thought management piece of it, which isn’t speaking about our services or products, not speaking a couple of direct name to motion to purchase now, however reasonably delivering worth by way of the expression of our content material ultimately. And so understanding these targets and targets and the place they overlap and the place they should merge and the place they should match collectively. That is the enterprise of the advertising technique. And there needs to be a advertising technique, built-in advertising technique to kind all that out. The problem on the content material advertising facet, simply to your level, is that there is typically nobody who can say no, proper? And whether or not that is a Chief Content material Officer or someone, what we all the time name it’s “the arbiter of fine”, proper? There must be somebody or some folks which are finally the arbiter of what attractiveness like. Now whether or not that is one individual, a Chief Content material Officer, who says that is good, it might go, or whether or not it is a council which goes to do all of the horse buying and selling and all of the issues that they should do to say, okay, that is good, that is what we will prioritize, and that is what we will say. So there must be an arbiter of fine there. And in lots of instances, as a result of there is no – and this comes again, I do know it’s sort of beating a lifeless horse – but it surely comes again to requirements and working procedures and all the type of documenting what it’s we do for a dwelling as a result of there is no requirements, there will be no arbiter of fine. Proper?
In different phrases, when gross sales says, “I want a contemporary new … I do not want a white paper, I want a greater brochure”. If there is no requirements towards that or no targets which were set towards both of these issues, then he is proper, they’re proper. Proper? They do want that as a result of that is what they want proper now. There is no means to return and go, no, you do not want a brand new brochure. What you want is a greater white paper as a result of we’ve not taken the time to construct in a strategic working course of the place we are able to measure all of the issues that we’re doing in order that I can really create a regular so that you can say, no, your intestine is fallacious on this. We must be doing this, proper? So, everyone’s proper and everyone’s fallacious, when there is no targets set and no arbiter of fine, thus all the pieces we do is type of okay and we simply throw sufficient towards the wall and see what sticks. (45.11)

SS:: It additionally falls into the entire debate on model constructing versus efficiency advertising, brief time period versus long run…

RR:: After all, 100%.

SS:: I imply, budgets are being bled into efficiency advertising and drained away from the concept of long run model constructing. And I feel content material advertising suffers because of that as a result of actually it is constructing model fairness over time, proper?

RR:: Completely, sure. I imply, it’s loopy how we’re nonetheless having this debate 70 years later over what’s higher, model constructing, long run model constructing, or brief time period efficiency advertising. And naturally, they’re each vital. The query will not be a query of both/or, it is a query of stability. And the query of stability in any given context, proper? And so what do we want extra of at this time? What do we want extra of tomorrow? What do we want? Steadiness. It is humorous. I wrote about this one time, which is stability doesn’t suggest equal. Steadiness signifies that we’re making use of the appropriate degree of weight to every one within the context of what we have now, that’s stability. You recognize, while you’ve received the individual on the tightrope with the massive stick that they are strolling throughout the tightrope, it is not all the time straight throughout. That is not stability. It is offsetting what it’s I want within the second. That is the true magic of getting an built-in, evolving, 24/7,365 advertising technique, is it might stability itself because it must within the second primarily based on what it’s that is wanted.

SS:: Yeah. In different phrases, there is no mounted 60/40 system endlessly. It adjusts over time primarily based on the expansion and evolution and maturity of the enterprise.

RR:: Yeah. And it’s, sadly, the brief time period typically wins out as a result of the long run appears like a price play, proper? It appears like, you understand, and in the event you do not put fixed consideration to the long run worth, it finally ends up all the time shifting out the time horizon, proper? There’s that great Chinese language saying, the most effective time to plant a tree was 100 years in the past, and the second greatest time is yesterday. Proper? And in order that’s the issue with one thing like content material advertising is the most effective time to begin content material advertising was 5 years in the past. The second greatest time is yesterday, proper? And so you have to apply sure – as a result of it’s a long run play – you have to apply some fixed degree of strain to it as you possibly can’t totally flip it off, in any other case you are ranging from zero once more.

SS:: Nicely, and I feel it additionally goes again to this funnel administration mindset that almost all entrepreneurs have. And I need to get into this somewhat bit as a result of, once more, one of many factors you make within the guide is that this give attention to the viewers as an asset, which I completely imagine in, however, you understand, the identical could possibly be stated of a relationship advertising technique. Proper? The payoff there may be actually long run progress within the worth of a buyer. And this goes again to the dialog we had not too way back about this entire idea of viewers versus buyer. Is one actually a subset of the opposite? Is relationship advertising actually the purpose right here? Construct relationships over time, and content material is one side of that total expertise. So due to this fact, in case you have a powerful relationship advertising technique within the enterprise, or a really buyer centric enterprise, it is a better case to make, to put money into that high quality content material.

RR:: That’s it. You’ve got nailed it. That is precisely it, proper? It is all about how will we develop a relationship with that broader viewers, proper? And so, you understand, I wrote about this final week, or the week earlier than, which is we have been speaking about relationships in digital advertising for the reason that earliest days, proper? Going again to our authentic type of the 2010 to when social media began. I can keep in mind audio system being up on stage and they’d say, you understand, ah, relationships are bullshit, proper? As a result of no person wakes up within the morning and says, “I want a greater relationship with my butter supplier”, or “I want a greater relationship with my generator supplier”, you understand, and that is true. And it all the time struck me as very cynical, but it surely’s true. We do not get up and lengthy for a greater relationship with actually any supplier. However that does not negate the necessity or negate the significance for the butter supplier or for the generator supplier to have a relationship with us. As a result of regardless of how transient, there’s a relationship there. Once they buy that stick of butter or once they buy that generator, that window of time in life, we do have a relationship with that individual buyer. All we’re making an attempt to recommend is that in at this time’s advertising world, that window of time must be longer, it must be extra expansive, it must be wider, it must be extra significant. So if I am the butter supplier or if I am the generator supplier, it is incumbent upon me to create causes for my shopper to have a deeper, extra significant relationship.
Now, if I am butter, it would not must be that rather more significant or trustful, or a deeper relationship. If I am a generator supplier and I am promoting one thing that is seven figures to someone who’s going to solely purchase that generator as soon as each 5 years or one thing like that, properly, it is a extra significant relationship, proper? It is undoubtedly one thing that I have to have a distinct degree of belief on. For this reason you see one thing like a B2B firm creating, not only a tips on how to run your generator, or not simply creating how to do that work, this product, or why our product is so nice, however educating engineers to be higher engineers, or educating electricians to be higher electricians – that retains the connection alive and a motive for it. So when they’re in that small shopping for window, they’re those which are high of thoughts in a really commoditized crowded market. That is it in a nutshell, proper? Is, we have to widen out the time window that we have now a relationship with prospects in order that we have now extra of an opportunity of being high of thoughts once they really are in that purchasing window. And in the event you simply type of take that, take a look at it… (51.26)

SS:: Precisely. For those who’re not, you are substitutable. For those who’re substitutable,…

RR:: That’s proper.

SS:: …you are a commoditized product pushed by the bottom value. I imply, Crimson Bull is your greatest instance of differentiation by associating your self with sponsorship of an exercise, a sport that is significant for a giant phase of the inhabitants, and discuss a commodified class, power drinks. They usually nonetheless stand out with their model for certain. That is the argument. I need to get into the concept of experiences, and I do need to dive into a few the fashions and frameworks in your guide simply to have you ever , give the viewers right here, a little bit of an outline on that and definitely a motive to purchase the guide, which I extremely advocate…

RR:: Thanks for that.

SS:: It appears to me that we’re evolving, but once more, from an period the place the main focus was on owned media to a give attention to expertise, proper?

RR:: That’s proper.

SS:: That is all you hear about at this time, differentiated expertise. So owned experiences, if you’ll, that you simply really promote by way of owned media. So in the event you personal the media, you possibly can promote the occasion. Salesforce, Crimson Bull, once more, , examples, definitely examples of that. And I do imply expertise within the broadest sense of the phrase. That’s, content material consumption will be a part of that have simply in addition to anything. Is that a great way to type of take a look at this and in reality construct the enterprise case right here, that content material is a technique to differentiate your expertise from the subsequent man’s expertise?

RR:: That is proper. And you will discover, as a result of the subsequent query {that a} CEO or a CMO would have is, “Okay, in what a part of the journey?” – it goes again to what I used to be simply saying, proper? Widening out the type of window of the connection. Proper? What a part of the expertise do we have to widen it out from? The place is the middle of our problem and the place do we have to widen it out from? If we’re new, if we’re a model new startup, it is fairly incumbent upon us to widen out that consciousness window, proper? To begin to develop a relationship with individuals who do not know what we do, do not know who we’re, do not know our firm identify, do not even know what it’s.
After I was at my firm within the early days of 2000s, no person knew what cloud computing was. No one knew what software program as a service meant. No one knew something about any of that. It was too new and bizarre and unusual. So our total factor was to coach folks by way of what the enterprise mannequin. I had loads of arguments with CFO’s at shopper firms who couldn’t. I imply, this sounds bizarre at this time, however at these days, they may not grok the concept of how a software program product delivered as a cloud service, a subscription primarily based service, would match into the way in which that they might mainly monetize, or type of account, do the accounting, for the way in which that they purchased software program, proper? As a result of for them, it was all the time a capital expense. Growth. That is a capital expense, and away they go, proper? It was like a subscription. It was so alien to them, proper? So consciousness and schooling was major for us to type of drive that widened relationship, to develop type of the openness to that individual mannequin.
If I am a properly established model, like an auto model or a generator model or one thing that is been round for one million years, rain gutters, or no matter it’s that you simply promote, it is in all probability not on the consciousness stage. All people is aware of they want rain gutters, everyone is aware of that they want a brand new automobile. All people is aware of that the worth of getting these issues – you need not drive consciousness, what you are making an attempt to drive, is causes to purchase from me, proper? And so mine is commoditized. I am a roofing firm, and so I’ve to distinguish my expertise from these which are down the road. So it is that center of the funnel, that center of the journey, that must be widened out so as to even have that relationship once they’re in that purchasing window, and so forth and so forth, by way of loyalty and thru use of the product and again round to re-up or resubscribe or resell or no matter it’s, once more, to purchase extra merchandise from that very same model. Making use of that a part of the shopper’s journey round what it’s you do for a dwelling, after which discovering that have that may assist widen that and deepen that relationship at that individual degree, that’s the actual trick. (55.52)

SS:: So, and simply selecting up on this, within the guide, you’ve got a few totally different frameworks that actually struck house for me. On the highest degree, you’ve got this concept of three pillars of content material technique, and also you identify them: Communications, simply what we had been speaking about, Experiences and Operations, which you had been alluding to earlier. Are you able to simply present a short overview of what you imply by these three pillars. I do know the guide goes into nice element, however only a type of thumbnail sketch of what these ideas imply.

RR:: Positive. And what I needed to do there was type of present, like, actually for any advertising college students which are on the market, outdated or younger, was the concept of what are the 4 P’s right here, of what we’re speaking about. What’s the product, place, value and promotion of the content material advertising concept? The operation – we spent a lot time speaking about – properly, what’s that operation? How does it work? What are the strain factors? What will we mannequin towards? And so the concept of three pillars comes down to at least one type of … let’s visualize in your head type of a Venn diagram, proper? A 3 circle Venn diagram the place there’s overlap in each circles and a middle circle. And so you have received the left one, which we might name coordinated content material. Content material as a functionality in your small business. Proper? So that is the mannequin. That is ensuring your folks do the appropriate issues. And that is the coordination of content material. This isn’t having the group be good at content material, however having the group assist the enterprise be good at content material. We have to coordinate all that communication. We have to do all of the issues that we have to do to have everyone working collectively in a typical technique to really try this. Which means charters, which means talent units, which means all of the issues that we take into consideration after we take into consideration that degree of coordination.
Then on the very reverse facet, we have now, okay, what are they being coordinated about? Proper? If we’re coordinating concepts within the one, what is the very far finish of that? And that is what we name Experiences, proper? The place we’re totally different sorts of expressions of that content material, whether or not that be a weblog put up, whether or not it’s a PDF file, whether or not it’s a video, whether or not it’s a podcast, regardless of the expressions are of these concepts and packaging them and producing them in order that they are often consumed by our audiences. Which means we have to perceive our audiences, we have to perceive our story, we have to perceive all of the issues that we’re doing to construct these, quote unquote, content material merchandise that may really exist out into the world and the way our shoppers will really get to it. And within the center, straddling all of these issues, are what we name Operations or content material orchestration, proper? Which is the place we’re mainly waving our baton round by way of the concept of the creation of requirements, by way of the creation of workflows, by way of the creation of making use of expertise, making use of the concept of coaching, and all of these sorts of issues. An operational mannequin that claims how we carry these two issues collectively, bringing these two issues collectively. And so every of these pillars. And we do not want to enter it right here, however every of these pillars then have, mainly, strain factors, if you’ll, issues to ask your self to say, are we doing this? Are we not doing this? Are we doing this? Are we not doing that? And you’ll see the place you’ve got the larger weaknesses. Proper? So we are able to apply type of that product place, value promotion concept and say, the place are we weak? The place are we sturdy? And the place do we have to fill gaps?

SS:: So that you do have 4 P’s, although, in your guide?

RR:: Sure, I do.

SS:: Performer, Promoter, Professor, Poet.

RR:: Sure. I could not resist! I am a sucker for alliteration, I’ve to say.

SS:: Yeah. And I really like the concept of Poet … poetry. So, once more, are you able to simply present right here for people a short overview of every of these concepts, ideas? (59.44)

RR:: Positive. This comes on this chapter that is actually constructed on enterprise storytelling and tips on how to categorical these concepts, in these experiences, proper? Which is, what are we doing? What affect are we making an attempt to have on an viewers of the content material? Proper? And this comes all the way down to a query, which is a basic query, which is, after we talked earlier about that arbiter of fine, properly, what’s arbiter? What is sweet? What does good appear to be? And sometimes comes the query of claiming, properly, what defines good content material? And, in fact, what defines good content material is the target that it has on the affect of the viewers, proper? So in the event you ask, for instance, a film producer, what is sweet content material? He’ll say, oh, that which places butts in seats, proper? Paid butts in seats, proper? That is good content material. In different phrases, it would not matter how silly it’s. If it is an Adam Sandler comedy or no matter, if it places butts in seats, it is good content material. Then you definately say, ask that to a trainer. And the trainer will say, properly, it is that which educates or that which imparts information in a profitable technique to a pupil. Does not matter how standard it’s. Does not matter what number of butts in seats it’s. It has a selected purpose and goal. Ask a salesman what good content material is, that which sells one thing. It persuades someone of one thing. You ask someone who’s, for instance, an auteur or an artist or one thing, what is sweet content material? They’re going to say that which strikes or that which creates an emotion or that which really strikes somebody to do one thing they did not earlier than. It tells a terrific story.
So, with all these in thoughts with enterprise content material, what I did was I type of broke these down into, after we’re assembling these sorts of experiences, what are the attributes of 4 totally different classes, proper? One, the Poet, which has probably the most attributes, by the way in which, that is content material that modifications behaviour. It mainly is constructed to have interaction you at an emotional degree and both change a behaviour or change a perception that you’ve got come to imagine, proper? That is the very best degree of content material, the place we’re making an attempt to truly change somebody’s thoughts on one thing, proper? We are attempting to encourage somebody to do one thing. Then, in fact, you’ve got what we name Professor content material, which is supposed to show one thing. That is the second highest order, the place you have received lots of attributes which are there, and it is meant to – the content material has to, the construction of it has to – impart information, it has to impart knowledge so that you’ve expertise, information, and bringing these issues collectively. Then as you progress up type of what we name the pyramid there, you find yourself with the concept of promoter content material. And that’s merely to advertise one thing, proper? So you have received outdated world, new world, growth, there you go, and away you go. After which Performer on the very high, which is, it is actually simply supposed to attract out an emotion from you, proper? So consider a terrific juggling act or consider a terrific music that you’ve got heard. It isn’t supposed to inform a narrative. It isn’t presupposed to do something. It is actually simply there to elicit an emotion from you. And what you need to do is type of pull all of these issues collectively so that you simply’re really filling out all of the attributes of a chunk of content material so as to strain check concepts. Like, I’ve a beautiful concept for one thing. Nicely, what’s its purpose or goal? Nicely, its purpose or goal is to show somebody one thing. Ah. Let us take a look at the Professor content material, and let’s apply these attributes and see which of them are most applicable.

SS:: Nicely, yeah, it’s a nice framework and distinctive, too. I actually have not seen that some other place. We’re virtually out of time right here, Robert, and no dialog about content material goes to be full nowadays with out some point out of AI. So forgive me for that …

RR:: After all.

SS:: You recognize, there may be clearly a development right here that Generative AI will displace or exchange or turn out to be the engine, if you’ll, for lots of decrease degree content material, however that the storytelling that you’ve got simply been alluding to, the poetry, if you’ll, nonetheless will stay extra of a humanistic accountability. What’s your perspective? How will AI change how content material is produced and folks’s perspective on it? Is it simply to take out prices and simply generate all this low degree content material, or will it evolve into one thing greater than that?

RR:: Nicely, I feel the actual reply right here is that anyone who says they’ve a solution is fooling themselves, proper? I imply, I feel the reply is, we do not know but. That is the actual reply. However that is not very satisfying for a podcast, for certain. So let’s attempt to reply it as greatest we are able to, which is, for the time being, what we are able to see is: So the very first thing that I completely know for reality is that AI itself will not be a technique, proper? AI is just a chance. It’s a query, not a solution. And so the actual query, after we take a look at groups, after we take a look at companies, after we take a look at content material creators and the way they will combine AI into their content material creation course of, they are not searching for an AI technique. They should kind out their content material technique, of which AI could be an innovation of. And so with out understanding your content material technique or with out understanding what it’s you at present do from a course of from an operational standpoint, you possibly can’t perceive how AI will be efficient since you do not perceive the query, proper? And in order that’s our first all the time, to any shopper who says, how can we be higher with AI at content material? I say, properly, let’s discuss your content material technique and the way you use proper now, and let’s examine the documentation on that. They usually’ll say, “Nicely, we do not know. I imply, content material simply type of occurs in our enterprise”. And it is like, then you do not perceive the query then, proper? You may’t perceive the query if you do not know what the query is. And in order that’s step one.
So I feel the place we are going to see AI type of start to make actual inroads is, in fact, in serving to velocity the concept of iteration in that content material creation course of, proper? Whether or not which means AI as a analysis software, which is, you understand, as I’ve tweeted earlier than, it is your tweetable second, which is creating content material is the least fascinating factor that generative AI does, proper? So to me, it is way more fascinating as a analysis assistant, as a technique to summarize paperwork, as a technique to discover patterns that are onerous to seek out. These are the issues that it is actually good at. Issues it is not so good at is authentic concepts or bringing knowledge to bear, or producing one thing that you’ve got by no means considered earlier than, proper? That is the onerous half. And so, I all the time assume that there is an software of creativity of you, after which how AI helps me be extra of me is de facto the software that it’ll turn out to be.

SS:: Nicely, it is onerous to think about AI being as eloquent as your self, I’ve to say.

RR:: Yeah, some folks would argue with that. Yeah.

SS:: You are a terrific author and it comes by way of in all the pieces you do. And I simply completely revelled in spending this previous hour with you. As I say, huge fan. And hopefully you may proceed to guide this business in the appropriate path. It is a huge ask, changing into a media operation for a enterprise, having labored inside and for lots of companies over my profession, however I, , should assume they will ultimately see the knowledge of it for certain.

RR:: I hope so. I’ve huge hopes. And as I’ve stated, we have now a accountability now to do content material properly. Proper? It isn’t simply a chance, however with the expansion of AI, with the expansion of misinformation, with the mistrust that is in our tradition proper now, it’s incumbent upon all of us to create nice, great, fascinating, true issues. And that’s, I’d say, I used to say that content material advertising was the most important alternative that companies usually are not availing themselves of. And now I’ve switched that to place somewhat extra urgency of it. And I say content material advertising is the most important accountability that companies have that they are not availing themselves of.

SS:: I so fully agree. And simply because organizations, companies should turn out to be extra customer-centric and content material advertising is a means to consider that. Proper?

RR:: Sure that’s proper

SS:: So thanks a lot to your time. Robert, it has been a pleasure, a delight. I totally loved the guide. I proceed to take pleasure in all the pieces you do. The podcast is lots of enjoyable to hearken to. So that you’re an absolute treasure for the business and I need to thanks once more.

RR:: Thanks a lot, my buddy. It has been an actual pleasure.

1. Supply: NYTLicensing
2. Joe Pulizzi, 2009, McGraw Hill

That concludes my interview with Robert Rose. As we realized, the place most organizations go fallacious with content material advertising is that they view it as a Trojan Horse – a technique to get prospects to decrease the drawbridge and allow them to contained in the gates. Corporations arrange their content material operations as content material factories in servitude to model advertising and gross sales. Nobody is charged with understanding the content material wants of knowledge seekers. So content material is produced virtually randomly, and invariably fails to resonate with the supposed viewers. A extra strategic strategy is to assume first about what prospects may worth after which to arrange content material creation round these wants. To do this, organizations should unlock the sources to show their content material groups into publishing models extra intently attuned to viewers pursuits. Solely by doing so will organizations break by way of the content material litter and switch viewers consideration and engagement into a long-lasting relationship with the model.

Stephen Shaw is the Chief Technique Officer of Kenna, a advertising options supplier specializing in delivering a extra unified buyer expertise. He’s additionally the host of the Buyer First Considering podcast. Stephen will be reached by way of e-mail at sshaw@kenna.

#Content material #Advertising #Technique #Interview #Robert #Rose #Founder #Content material #Advisory

Related articles


Leave a reply

Please enter your comment!
Please enter your name here